Lemon

[prateek.singla]

Yes or No?

[blissturd]

Doesn't really matter to me because I will destroy you all. :)

Seriously, though, if we are playing for prizes, it should be removed.

If it's just a simple wannabe tournament for fun, then it doesn't hurt to keep it in.

I vote to take it out because flankattack donated money, you get a cool sig, and, if it is removed, I'll donate as well.

[prateek.singla]

If it is removed, I'll donate as well.

Are you trying to bribe me? :mad:



btw how much are we talking abut here??? :D

[blissturd]

No bribe here.

I planned on donating to the cause.

But, I'm quite sure I don't want to put my money into something I don't agree with.

[blue_moon]

The weapon should not be removed from the game permanently, that's just strange.

In regular games, it depends on the person.

[Everlast]

Not removed from the game, just the tournaments.

[ekoz]

the thing is, the tournament is all about being the best. lemon just shows how good one can be - even whent he enemy might have a one weapon handicap, if you win, that just shows how much better you are.

plus, there are many uses for lemon. a turn waster, a way to make a shooting hole when your buried without destroying all dirt, so you pretty much have a home-made shelter - what it lacks in damage, it makes up for in some pretty strategic moves.

besides, a real PT master uses ALL PT weapons, good or not. they should be able to utilize and improvise with whatever they get.

[blissturd]

Wow, are you kidding me?

This has nothing to do with any of that, ekoz.

It's not a real weapon. That's the bottom line.

Mike put it in as a joke.

I could completely understand if it was a real weapon, like, tracer, glue bomb, etc.

It's not.

Although, I'd rather those be out as well. Makes the game more fun.

[The Pryomaniac]

I say it should be removed, It was quite funny for awhile. Its description, its power. However 'tis quite useless now. Ya know?

[prateek.singla]

WOW! The poll is going neck-to-neck. This might call for a good debate.

[Mike W.]

The Lemon weapon is a bit odd, but it has it's place in the weapon picking metagame. It's kinda like playing Magic the Gathering and getting stuck with the common card that everyone keeps passing on during a draft. But at least in Magic, you can choose to not add it to your deck... in Pocket Tanks you are stuck with it.

I will say that with only 10 weapons, is sure would be lame to get stuck with the Lemon in a tourney.

I'm riding the fence on this one, but I'd be cool with removing it from a serious tournament.

[blissturd]

The Lemon weapon is a bit odd, but it has it's place in the weapon picking metagame.
It's a joke, though. You didn't make it with the intent of being an actual weapon. The point being - it shouldn't have a place in the weapon picking anything.



It's kinda like playing Magic the Gathering and getting stuck with the common card that everyone keeps passing on during a draft.
Actually, I play Magic and it's not like that at all. Bouncy Dirt or Glue Bomb is like that.

Lemon is like a card from the Unglued or Unhinged sets. Not tournament legal. Just joke cards made for fun.



But at least in Magic, you can choose to not add it to your deck... in Pocket Tanks you are stuck with it.
Unless you treat it how it was meant to be used and remove it from the tournament. Just like you wouldn't see an Unhinged card in a regular pack of Magic, you shouldn't see a Lemon in the Weapon Selection screen.




I will say that with only 10 weapons, is sure would be lame to get stuck with the Lemon in a tourney.
That's because your opponent would have 10 weapons while you would actually only have 9. Technically, you have 10 but, that's only because everything made for pocket tanks that fires out of the turret or not is concidered a weapon for simplicities sake. In reality, though, Lemon is in a catagory all it's own.




I'm riding the fence on this one, but I'd be cool with removing it from a serious tournament.
I guess it is easiest to just not take sides. That's how I'm going about it. I won't argue that it be in or out. I'll only inform that, in a tournament setting, it shouldn't be allowed. Fine by me if it's in but, seeing as though there will be a prize, I'm looking at this as a serious tournament and it only makes the tournament holder look like he doesn't know what he's doing.



I guess all in all it doesn't really matter. The chances of getting a Lemon are pretty slim and with double elimination, the chances of getting it twice are actually close to not. You might as well leave it in even though it shouldn't be. It would seem that I need another handicap anyways. :)

[prateek.singla]

Ah well fine, I have made anew announcement in the tournament thread which should satisfy everybody.

[Bert]

I guess it is easiest to just not take sides. That's how I'm going about it. I won't argue that it be in or out.

lolwut? (Someone at my school has a giant patch on the back of her jacket that says this. The irony is that whenever somebody sees that on her back they probably think "lolwut?")

You are clearly taking sides. "I'll only inform that, in a tournament setting, it shouldn't be allowed." You are informing us of your opinion, therefor you are taking sides. (Not to mention you voted in the poll.) You sure do sound like you are arguing it to be removed from tournament play, even though you would be fine with it in, too.

I think it should stay. It has its purposes, joke or not. Just because it may have been intended as a joke doesn't mean it can't still be used to your advantage. For example: If I see my opponent with lots of dirt weapons, I will sometimes choose a lemon over let's say a single shot because if I am winning and burried in sand, I don't want to get mass negative points. Or like someone already mentioned, it is really good for getting out of rainbow dirt, or some other dirt you are barely covered in. All I am saying is that it does have some positive uses, so it deserves to stay in tournament matches.

[Samail]

lolwut? (Someone at my school has a giant patch on the back of her jacket that says this. The irony is that whenever somebody sees that on her back they probably think "lolwut?")

I want that patch...


You are clearly taking sides. "I'll only inform that, in a tournament setting, it shouldn't be allowed." You are informing us of your opinion, therefor you are taking sides. (Not to mention you voted on the poll.)

Was thinking the same thing.



I'm thinking some people are being too literal on this.

Yes, Lemon has some minor purposes.
BUT, the fact is that the weapon is useless enough for it to really suck getting stuck with it in a serious tournament.
Think about it. You have 10 shots. Losing 10% of your arsenal really hurts your chances.
It's a handicap. It even sort of says that in the description: "Just laugh if your opponent gets stuck with it." (Forum description)


That's my side on the tournaments.
In normal games, blast lemons at each other until you make lemonade. I don't care. :rolleyes:

[blissturd]

Wow, Bert. You really aren't paying attention at all, are you?

It's not about whether the Lemon will be taken out of the tournament, it's about whether the Lemon should be taken out of the tournament.

If you'd go back and actually read why it should be disabled then you would understand what I'm getting at.

There is no excuse, reason, or anything you can say as to why it should be in the tournament.

I like Lemon. If this was just a little friendly gathering and we set up a small tourney like event then, Lemon would be very fun to have in. Being as that it has uses is the reason why. Even if it didn't it would be funny to have in.

This is not like that. It's a tournament with a prize. Whether it has uses or not, in a tournament environment set up for competitive play with something to win, Lemon should be disabled.
Look at the Magic: The Gathering example.

I played with Unglued cards in my deck sometimes for fun when I played with friends but, in a tournament it's not allowed. Your deck would not be tournament legal.

It should be simple to see.

As I've said, I don't mind it being in because I think it is funny and I really just don't care. But, it's a tournament and whether I want it to be in or not, it should not be allowed.

[Bert]

"It's not about whether the Lemon will be taken out of the tournament, it's about whether the Lemon should be taken out of the tournament."

Need I say "lolwut" again? This argument could determine if lemon will be in touraments.

You think it should be excluded from the tournament because it has no use, correct? Well I think it has uses, so it I think it should be allowed. Single shot is useful in my mind, so I think it should be allowed. Same goes with lemon. It has its uses, just like tracer, bouncey dirt, and glue bomb. You act as if your oppinion is fact.

The lemon is useful, so just like any other useful weapon, it should be allowed in a tournament.

It should be simple to see.

[blissturd]

You think it should be excluded from the tournament because it has no use, correct?
Incorrect, as I just said in the previous post. Here it is again.

I like Lemon. If this was just a little friendly gathering and we set up a small tourney like event then, Lemon would be very fun to have in. Being as that it has uses is the reason why. Even if it didn't it would be funny to have in.
I never once ever said that Lemon has absolutely no use whatsoever.

The closest thing said to that would be post # 309 (http://forums.blitwise.com/forums/showpost.php?p=78086&postcount=309) where I quoted prateek when he said that all the weapons were made to serve a purpose and I mentioned that the only purpose Lemon has is being a joke.
I never said that it was useless. Just that it wasn't made to serve a purpose other than being a joke. This was said by Mike himself.


In post #304 (http://forums.blitwise.com/forums/showpost.php?p=78065&postcount=304) I said...

Lemon - Wasn't meant as an actual weapon but, as a joke. It should not be tournament legal for this reason alone.

This was the first time I mentioned why Lemon should not be in the tournament. And as you can see, It's the only reason that I've been giving as to why it shouldn't be enabled in tournaments. Nothing there says that it shouldn't be allowed because it's useless. Whether it's useless or not isn't even relevant.




The lemon is useful, so just like any other useful weapon, it should be allowed in a tournament.
I'll say it again for you little one. Whether it's the worst weapon in the game or the most powerful weapon in the game, it should not be in tournaments simply because it was made with the sole purpose of being a joke.
To elaborate a little, lemon was not made with the same intentions as every single other weapon in Pocket Tanks.

It's getting a bit ridiculous repeating this over and over again. If it doesn't get into your head now then you need to go back to kindergarten and just finger paint or something.

[Samail]

Wow, Bert. You really aren't paying attention at all, are you?

It's not about whether the Lemon will be taken out of the tournament, it's about whether the Lemon should be taken out of the tournament.

If you'd go back and actually read why it should be disabled then you would understand what I'm getting at.

Uhm... when did he say "will"?

[blissturd]

Uhm... when did he say "will"?
Who?

I'm the only one who said that.

It means that nothing has to be done or even will be done. It's all just based on what should be done.

I'm all game for keeping it in. I just know that it's not right it be in tournaments.


The only real thing that makes it O.K. that it be in these tournaments is the fact that we are not paying to enter them.
Since these tournaments are free with the exception of time, anything goes and it's all good.

If there was an entry fee, this would be about entering or not. It would be about not just what should be done but, about what will be done. I'll enter whether it's in the tournament or not if it's a free tournament.

Although, being that there is a prize, I'd say it's close enough to a real tournament that something like Lemon, which is simply a joke, shouldn't be in there.

No real officially sanctioned tournament would allow it and if they did, I'm quite sure that no true competitive player would enter.

Although, as I've said earlier, the chances with double elimination it's quite rare for a Lemon to really screw you.
I don't think I'd pay to enter something like that no matter the chances. If there is any, I'm out. I can wait for something more suited for "professional" type players.


Just look at the Magic: The Gathering example if there is any confusion. That should clear it up, hopefully.

If anyone needs more clearing up, I'll give another example now.

Imagine you want to start up a game of football with your friends and family.
It's cool that your little 5 year old sister play or even your dog.

Get into a real football match whether it's held at school or in a professional stadium. No, your little sister can't play. And no dogs allowed.

I really hope this makes sense.

[Bert]

No need for the insults.

So by your logic, if Mike said that Single Shot was only a joke weapon, you would want it banned from tournaments because its sole purpose was to be a joke weapon, right? That just doesn't make sense to me.

I think a weapon should be in a tournament if it is useful. I don't think it matters what the description says, or what the purpose was supposed to be. This is my opinion.

Maybe Lemon was created to be a useful weapon, and Mike is just playing a trick on us? If he then said it wasn't a joke weapon, would you want it in the tournament?

"Imagine you want to start up a game of football with your friends and family.
It's cool that your little 5 year old sister play or even your dog.

Get into a real football match whether it's held at school or in a professional stadium. No, your little sister can't play. And no dogs allowed."

This is a bad analogy to me. If this was the case in Pocket Tanks, every weak weapon would be taken out like Bouncey Dirt, Glue Bomb, Tracer, etc. And every weapon at the moment is allowed in tournaments, but sisters and dogs just aren't allowed at football games. The rules are already set for football games not Pocket Tanks tournaments. I think if a little sister was useful in a high school football game, then she should be allowed to play.

Its like you don't even take my opinion into consideration. I understand what you are saying now, but I disagree.

[Samail]

It's futile to keep going, Bert.
No matter how valid your argument is, he's not going to stop.
Views are on the table. Should suffice for now.

[blissturd]

No need for the insults.
Not an insult. Just another analogy. Seriously.


Have you ever joined or been part of an official tournament of some sort? I have, many times. I know what I'm talking about when it comes to competitive play. I play things for fun all the time but, when there is a chance to play competitively, that's what I do.

So by your logic, if Mike said that Single Shot was only a joke weapon, you would want it banned from tournaments because its sole purpose was to be a joke weapon, right? That just doesn't make sense to me.
Why are you giving "if" statements?
Mike would never say that Single Shot was made as a joke because that is not what he did. Even if for some far out reason he did "say" that, it still wouldn't make it true.

It's not really about what Mike "said" anyways. It's about what mike "did". Mike confirmed what he "did" with what he "said" but, what really matters is only what he "did".

Mike didn't just "say" he made Lemon as a joke. He actually "did" make Lemon as a joke.

No other weapon was made as a joke. Just this one.






I think a weapon should be in a tournament if it is useful. I don't think it matters what the description says, or what the purpose was supposed to be. This is my opinion.
This is because you are not a professional or a seriously competitive player nor will you ever be, thinking like this.
You said it right here. The reason you want it in is because it's "useful".

Again, it's not about whether it's useful or not. I don't care if it is or isn't. As a matter of fact, I think that it is useful at times. Many people have already clarified this enough as well, including yourself and I. This is completely irrelevant. It should not be enabled in tournament play because it was made as and still is a joke. Nothing more.

Everything and anything that it does, does not matter. It never will matter unless Mike changes why it was made by adding something to it, taking something from it, or changing it any other way. This change would have to be made for the purpose of clearing the joke.

Other than that, Lemon was made as a joke and therefore should not be enabled for competitive play. It can be but, it shouldn't be.



Maybe Lemon was created to be a useful weapon, and Mike is just playing a trick on us? If he then said it wasn't a joke weapon, would you want it in the tournament?
Again, Mike would never ever in his life say this and mean it. It's not true. If it was, he'd have said so already. And it's quite obvious by what it does that it was a joke. I'm sure he can upgrade Lemon later to do something cool and make it official but, as of now, it's just a joke.




This is a bad analogy to me. If this was the case in Pocket Tanks, every weak weapon would be taken out like Bouncey Dirt, Glue Bomb, Tracer, etc. And every weapon at the moment is allowed in tournaments, but sisters and dogs just aren't allowed at football games. The rules are already set for football games not Pocket Tanks tournaments. I think if a little sister was useful in a high school football game, then she should be allowed to play.
It was spur of the moment when I came up with this. It's the best I could think of at the time while trying to compare something that is not the same as what we are talking about. It's not really a bad analogy but, you would think so because you don't have a clue what I'm talking about.

The point is that even if your little sister or dog can play football or not, it's not made for them. They are not made for it. Even if you yourself hold a small gathering just for them (like an all Lemon tournament) this won't change anything for the real tournaments. Like I said, Lemon is in a catagory all it's own.

If you played Magic: The Gathering or entered any other tournament in the world, you might understand and we wouldn't be talking about this. Because, whether you want it in or not, I want it in or not, Mike wants it in or not, or even the President wants it in or not, it's not supposed to be in. It can be for fun's sake and for fun's sake alone.

In a serious tournament with seriously competitive players, no one would want or believe that it should be allowed if there is something at stake.



Let me clarify something for you a bit.

I'm not saying you are wrong for wanting it to be in the tournament. That's quite fine with me. I don't mind it being in either.

As I've said earlier. It can be in. Maybe prateek will allow it. I haven't read the updated OP. Either way, if it's in or not, I'm still joining the tournament. I just won't put up any money for it.

Because there is a prize, though, it's shouldn't belong. It can though, since it's not really a loss of anything if the jokes on you. I guess since none of these tournaments are really even official, it can be put in as well. If Pocket Tanks does get huge from online play and paid tournaments are held, this Lemon business wouldn't fly. Not with real competitive players.

In these tournaments set up by us, it's fine but, it won't be when things get serious.




No matter how valid your argument is, he's not going to stop.
There is nothing valid about his argument in regards to what I'm talking about. He is arguing something that I am not arguing back.
He wants the Lemons in. I don't care if the Lemons are in.

I"m only stating and have only been stating that for officially sanctioned tournaments, they should not be allowed. I look at these as official because there is something to be won here, which includes money, and lost on my part because I wanted to donate.

You guys seem to misunderstand what I'm talking about quite often.

[flankattack]

Well, I could see this going on for a while...

Lemon stay so far.

[Samail]

There is nothing valid about his argument in regards to what I mleh meh bleh......

Was simply stating a fact.

[blissturd]

Yeah, Samail. You got it.

I've been in tournaments and there are no exceptions. Lemon wouldn't be in there.

For these kind of non-official holdings, I don't really care much. I would only rather it not be in because of the winnings and because I wanted to donate.

Lemon is fine with me other than that. I played the whole tourney ekoz made and a I don't even recall seeing one. The off chance of having one in a real tourney should not be possible.

I need to lose anyways. That's why I always insist on my opponent hosting the game.
I think these winnings might be getting to my head. I know I feel superior but, I don't want it coming off in my posts when I'm being serious. For fun is okay but, if it starts to define me I might have to chill on the forums for bit.

[prateek.singla]

Well, according to the poll, Lemon shouldn't be there.

[blissturd]

Shouldn't be where?

More people prefer it stay in the tournament.

Just shows the amateur status this forum holds.

[Bert]

I am done arguing with this ignorant fool.

[prateek.singla]

Oops. Sorry, I meant more people prefer that it stays in the tournaments. But as you have seen, we'll be having only the best of the best weapons in the quarter finals and forth. I hope everyone is happy with this decision.

edit: Now I'm felling that instead of having only the best weapons, we could just remove some unimportant ones like bouncy dirt, all glue weapons (with some exceptions), lemon, tracers, etc.

What do you think?

[Samail]

Well if people are against removing the freaking Lemon for tournamental purposes (heh, new word :rolleyes:), then I'd say all signs point to "nay" on that one.

[blissturd]

I am done arguing with this ignorant fool.
Okaaaaay...

Show me anywhere in this discussion where I could be considered ignorant.

I bet you can't. Because it is you that is the ignorant one.

Look at the posts, Bert. You are arguing with yourself. I was giving information and you were only telling people what you want.

I know what you want and I never disagreed with it. But, you were trying to disagree with what I was saying and you can't disagree with how things are. I'm only giving information based on how things are from my past and present experiences during competitive play. It's not what I want, it's how things are and that's all I'm saying.

Until you put aside your emotions and look at the facts, it is you that will be in the darkness of ignorance.

[prateek.singla]

Well if people are against removing the freaking Lemon for tournamental purposes (heh, new word :rolleyes:), then I'd say all signs point to "nay" on that one.

I'm talking about removing those weapons not for the whole tournament, but only for the quarter-finals and forth.

I'm just asking whether it would be better to have only the best weapons or just have some of the useless weapons removed?

[blissturd]

You might as well forget all of this, prateek.

Just run it how it already is.

I was only stating that Lemon should be removed, not that it has to be.

All the other weapons in the game were made to be used. They are fine.

I'm doing just fine the way things are now anyway so, you won't hear any complaints from me.

I'll just leave the choices about all this up to the others now.

If you care about what I would like to be removed then you can visit my earlier post here (http://forums.blitwise.com/forums/showpost.php?p=78065&postcount=304).
I think I give well enough reasons as to why I think it'd be beneficial for the disabling of these weapons.

[prateek.singla]

Just run it how it already is.

OK then. Since even the poll is in favour of this decision, no changes are being made to the weapons.

[GoldenShark]

The Lemon is a neutral weapon, I voted yes on the polls, but after putting some thought into it, Lemons can either help or harm the player, I mean imagine this circumstance, You have a powerful weapon, your opponent has a lemon.
Pros And Cons
Pro: If your opponent is stuck with the lemon, you have a greater chance to win
Why?
1.)It is a weak weapon, meaning you would win
2.) Scrambles the opponents controls, If your opponent is a forgetful person, you'll be lucky of course because he/she will mess up.
3.) It rarely hits, but if it does it only causes 1 point damage.
Cons: You're stuck with the weapon, which means you are owned. Possibly....
So it really depends.
But mike, couldn't you make the lemon a stronger weapon? I mean a weapon that rarely hits should have a high point damage or at least a bigger explosion.
Just a suggestion I'm not a genius so its your decision, your rules, and I'll stick with it until the end of time.

[blissturd]

But mike, couldn't you make the lemon a stronger weapon? I mean a weapon that rarely hits should have a high point damage or at least a bigger explosion.
It's like this because it's a joke.

And we know everything you just said. You didn't even read the previous posts, did you?

For this, I must slay you in Pocket Tanks through Hamachi or IP to IP!

[prateek.singla]

But mike, couldn't you make the lemon a stronger weapon? I mean a weapon that rarely hits should have a high point damage or at least a bigger explosion.

If Mike did that, then Lemon would not be unique, would it?
We have weapons like Lead balloon, mass driver,etc. for this.

[blissturd]

If Mike did that, then Lemon would not be unique, would it?
We have weapons like Lead balloon, mass driver,etc. for this.
Yeah, and also, IT"S A JOKE!
HAHAHAHA!

Laugh at it. Don't question it.

[Samail]

But mike, couldn't you make the lemon a stronger weapon? I mean a weapon that rarely hits should have a high point damage or at least a bigger explosion.
*epic facepalm*

[Nishliau]

When would be the day of Cut-Off, for the Lemon appearing?

[TH155]

Shouldn't be where?

More people prefer it stay in the tournament.

Just shows the amateur status this forum holds.

No, it's just that it's a part of the game, if it was an ONLY lemmon match then i would vote no, but as it is, it's just more stratagy in the weapon-choosing screen.