Debate: Cloning

[Rex Nex]

Well, heres our first official debate, but we do have like 10 a day..

This is on cloning. This includes the exact reproduction of humans, animals, tissues, and food products.

How do you feel and where do you stand on this topic?

[blissturd]

OMG, I'm watching the new CG episodes of Star Wars: The Clone Wars on Cartoon Network.

Clones rule! <--- Nothing else to say.

This was a perfect first debate.

Next.

[TH155]

Yea, they do, but for some reason, i don't wan't a clone human. i'm alright with animals but 4 some reason, i don't wan't a clone human.

[Drow Elf]

It would be totally awesome if possible, but there would be problems to deal with. Mainly that unless you were cloned shortly after conception, your clone would be younger than you.

Food. Hmm. As long as it's not genetically modified, I'm fine with it.

Tissues. Neat! They can clone Kleenx! LOL, no, I get what you mean. Useful for those without those needed.

Animals. Mostly cloned for food, but I do know that they did clone pets commercially for a while, but the company ran out of business years ago.

I'm fine with cloning. I think if we clone people, the clones might develop psychological differences from the original, so there thoughts responses and actions would be different, and for the most part fail at cloning what we think is the most important part of a person: their personality.

[TH155]

No, clones are exactly the same age as you. (i think) look at bottom line of my sig, who gets it first, it's easy

[Drow Elf]

Clones cannot be the same age as the original unless they were cloned right after conception as no matter what you do, you cannot change the speed at which a body (human, animal, insect, etc) ages.

[blissturd]

No, clones are exactly the same age as you. (i think)

Depends on what kind of cloning.

If it's some kind of big machine that just makes them appear then they would be the same.

But, if it's just genetics and the clone must be born, then they wouldn't be the same age.

And also, th155,

Yea, they do, but for some reason, i don't wan't a clone human. i'm alright with animals but 4 some reason, i don't wan't a clone human.

This is not a debate type response. You should really give reasoning for why you feel this way.

[TH155]

I know but i don't know why, i really don't

[Drow Elf]

Eh, ignore it if it doesn't make sense.

[TH155]

I'm all 4 clones if,

A. They use the original stem cell
B. They survive
and C. ( This is only 4 animals) the food tastes the same.

[blissturd]

I know but i don't know why, i really don't

Well, then, th155, you just lost the debate. Cloning humans is good. <---- Cool, I mean.

It can get bad. If a clone murders someone then what? How would you be able to tell who will be held responsible for it?

I think that the clones should have those chips implanted in them when they are born or made. Chips that tell the CCA (Central Cloning Agency) where they are and where they've been..among other things.

[Drow Elf]

Well, then, th155, you just lost the debate. Cloning humans is good. <---- Cool, I mean.

It can get bad. If a clone murders someone then what? How would you be able to tell who will be held responsible for it?

I think that the clones should have those chips implanted in them when they are born or made. Chips that tell the CCA (Central Cloning Agency) where they are and where they've been..among other things.


Right. You're the kind of person who is totally obsessive compulsive when it comes to debates. It's a forum, not a tournament, so no winning or losing. Just fun. So calm down.

If a clone murders it's the clones fault. A clone of a human would be a free thinking individual and would be able to make choices just like any other human being. It would take orders unless it was forced to or consented to obey.

[blissturd]

Right. You're the kind of person who is totally obsessive compulsive when it comes to debates. It's a forum, not a tournament, so no winning or losing. Just fun. So calm down.

You just did the same thing I did, so how about you calm down.


If a clone murders it's the clones fault. A clone of a human would be a free thinking individual and would be able to make choices just like any other human being. It would take orders unless it was forced to or consented to obey.

I was talking about, how would anyone know which clone did it? Come on now, I know each clone is it's own individual self.

[Leon]

There should be a distinction between a debate and an argument. Let's all just cool it.

Anyway, I'm somewhat peculiar on this topic. Food products and tissues are fine, as long as great care is taken to ensure the original cell has no genetic abnormalities that might multiply over several clonings.

For animals, it seems like somewhat of a bad idea. Releasing clones into a system would severely skew the local gene pool towards a certain genotype, possibly to such an extent that genetic mutation-based diseases normally exclusive to inbreeding might appear in unmodified creatures.

Cloning entire humans, in my opinion, should essentially never be done. Hundreds of moral, ethical, and legal questions would arise without any appreciable benefit.
Which isn't to say that the entire field of human genetics should be outlawed. Modifications, if done with incredible caution, might cure all genetic diseases and even make our future descendants into what we would describe as supermen. And even the procedures currently used can give children to formerly infertile couples.

Summary: food and skin are okay, but watch it with the creatures.

[blissturd]

Us humans are always doing border line insane things. Things that the public doesn't know about even. For all we know, cloning is happening already.

Whatever problems we may cause, I'm sure we will find a way to make it better.

So...LET THE CLONING COMMENCE!

[flankattack]

I believe cloning is wrong. But I won't bring religion into this so it is probably best I don't comment.

[TH155]

For animals, it seems like somewhat of a bad idea. Releasing clones into a system would severely skew the local gene pool towards a certain genotype, possibly to such an extent that genetic mutation-based diseases normally exclusive to inbreeding might appear in unmodified creatures.

Cloning entire humans, in my opinion, should essentially never be done. Hundreds of moral, ethical, and legal questions would arise without any appreciable benefit.
Which isn't to say that the entire field of human genetics should be outlawed. Modifications, if done with incredible caution, might cure all genetic diseases and even make our future descendants into what we would describe as supermen. And even the procedures currently used can give children to formerly infertile couples.

Summary: food and skin are okay, but watch it with the creatures.

GENIUS, you summed up what i was trying to say is 2 paragraphs!!!

[Rex Nex]

Wow th, you really are quite a charector..

I beleive any cloning still need extensive research. Who knows, in 50 years all that cloned food could of picked up a stray strand and developed a cancer cell. Animal clones have been tested, and it works. However, its immoral and useless (To clone a sheep, for example, your paying the price of 500+ sheep)

Humans is a matter which should be explored, but will...

[TH155]

Anouther reason that i don't want to clone humans is religion.

[blissturd]

flankattack,

But I won't bring religion into this so it is probably best I don't comment.

You are probably right about this. It will turn into a religious debate instead of a cloning debate, maybe.
No matter what your beliefs are things happen whether they are for or against a certain religion so, this will have to be the end of the religion mentioning because anything said will be pointless because the people who will do cloning don't care about what any religion says and no religion can stop them. As has been seen in the past. I think.

[Rex Nex]

Yes, cloning does conflict with many religons..

[Doomedrusher]

Well, heres our first official debate, but we do have like 10 a day..

This is on cloning. This includes the exact reproduction of humans, animals, tissues, and food products.

How do you feel and where do you stand on this topic?

Cloning = perfectly acceptable. Clones are independent organisms produced in a method much akin to natural insemination, only more traumatic to the cell. The cloned organism will develop differently from the DNA donor. It is a separate organism in its own right. Honestly, many people who oppose cloning do not even know how it's done. UGGH.

EDIT> Religions...

Take Christianity, for example.

-If Hitler repented before he died and "accepted Jesus", he would go to heaven.

-Jews being gassed by Hitler would go to hell because they are "not one with God" and "spiritually dead".

Plus, WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT CLONING???

(No offense intended...)

[Rex Nex]

That was a bit anti-Christian..

The universe is a complete paradox to me. With a god, so many things would be totaly different, and so many things wouldnt even happen. Without a god, everything we know is irrelevent. Where would the first peice of matter or gas in the universe come from without a creator? Why do we exist and have a chance to torment in hell if god could just make us into perfect beings in heaven?

This is around the Christian religon. I dont know much about others.

[Drow Elf]

EDIT> Religions...

Take Christianity, for example.

-If Hitler repented before he died and "accepted Jesus", he would go to heaven.

-Jews being gassed by Hitler would go to hell because they are "not one with God" and "spiritually dead".

Plus, WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT CLONING???

(No offense intended...)

Very true. As much as people say that, they just mean that they don't believe it is right and it is a sin, while the bible was written thousands of years before the idea of cloning became a reality.

Funny thing about christians and jews is they only follow certain laws within the bible and ignore others.

For instance, the bible does say that marrige should be between a man and a woman (so gay couples can't get married).

However, all those devout believers are bound to have shaved, eaten shellfish, drank milk or consumed a dairy product, bathed, or lied. All of those things are punishable by being stoned to death according to the bible, but no one enforces them as strictly, or at all in some cases.

I don't think anyone can rightfully say that cloning is against their religion (unless someone specifically made a religion that forbid cloning).

Note: I didn't mean to insult anyone (gay, christian, jew, etc) I was just proving a point.

[Rex Nex]

There are modern religons...

Though they have no fallowers. Who would beleive in a religon that has a god of technology?

[Drow Elf]

Good question. I hope you find an answer to it.

[Nonnag]

Hmmm cloning.... I like the IDEA, but people must remember that the clone (Unless, you could reproduce either the exact growing up of the original, to the clone, or clone the thoughts and feelings with the clone) it would be different in every way but looks. Now yes it would have the same geneic code, things would still be different.

Many things would be different, from their preferences to their views of life.

[minmay]

I don't think there's anything morally wrong with cloning. However, it, unfortunately, is practically useless in most ways.

Cloning tissue: This is the only use I can see for cloning. Being able to create organs for people with rare blood types is definitely a good thing.

Cloning animals (food): It costs far less to just buy the animals and have them reproduce. Not feasible. If the technology gets cheap enough, then it's considerable.

Cloning animals (pets): There are already many, many more pets in the world than there are homes for them.

Cloning animals (humans, because humans are animals): I see absolutely nothing morally wrong with this, but I also see absolutely nothing useful in this. There are plenty of people around. With selective cloning, yes, you could eliminate diseases, but that would be incredibly complicated, tedious, and expensive. It's easier to just let nature take its course; if a disease poses a serious threat, the species will develop genetic immunity in just a few generations.



So, basically: cloning is perfectly all right with me, just pretty unuseful.

[Drow Elf]

Cloning animals (food): It costs far less to just buy the animals and have them reproduce. Not feasible. If the technology gets cheap enough, then it's considerable.

The point of cloning an animal for food would be so that the animal would have the exact same genes and traits. If you want high quality beef, breed until you have the right type of cow, then clone it. The same goes for any other animal (or plant) that we use for food.

[flankattack]

However, all those devout believers are bound to have shaved, eaten shellfish, drank milk or consumed a dairy product, bathed, or lied. All of those things are punishable by being stoned to death according to the bible, but no one enforces them as strictly, or at all in some cases.

You are referring to the law of Moses in the old testament. People back then had to do nearly all that stuff. But since Jesus came to earth and died on the cross for everyone, anyone can ask Him for forgiveness. Bottom line is this:
The penalty of sin is death, thus all people die. Jesus can take away your sin if you ask and follow Him, thus Jesus gives eternal life.
As for doomedrusher I won't even get started on that post.

PM me if you want more information. If we could keep religious debates to a minimum before someone gets hurt that would be great.

Thanks for finally getting a debate started.:):D
Cheers
-flankattack

[Drow Elf]

You are referring to the law of Moses in the old testament. People back then had to do nearly all that stuff. But since Jesus came to earth and died on the cross for everyone, anyone can ask Him for forgiveness. Bottom line is this:
The penalty of sin is death, thus all people die. Jesus can take away your sin if you ask and follow Him, thus Jesus gives eternal life.
As for doomedrusher I won't even get started on that post.

PM me if you want more information. If we could keep religious debates to a minimum before someone gets hurt that would be great.

Thanks for finally getting a debate started.:):D
Cheers
-flankattack

As far as I know, the old testament is part of the bible.

Anyhow, I didn't mean to start a debate, I was proving a point using example from the bible.

EDIT:

Can anyone else see why the comment about sin being punishable death is necessary, as I think being stoned to death classifies as dying.

[Doomedrusher]

The penalty of sin is death, thus all people die. Jesus can take away your sin if you ask and follow Him, thus Jesus gives eternal life.

Explain Christians dying.

[flankattack]

OK. The penalty of sin is death, so if you sin; even just once, you are condemned to hell. God cannot accept anyone that is not perfect into Heaven. Jesus was perfect, and without blame. So why did He die if he didn't sin? He died for our sins. When He was killed He took all our sins away and forgave us. When Jesus died for us, we were seen perfect in God's eyes. We may still die physically, but our spirits will go to be with God.
But the depths of sin couldn't hold Jesus because He was without fault. Jesus rose from the dead three days after dieing. After rising He went to give encouragement to His followers, then went to be with His father, God. And so death will not hold our spirits and we will live forever with God.

This next part is very hard to understand.
Jesus is God
Jesus is God's Son
The Holy Spirit is Jesus' Spirit
The Holy Spirit is God.
God is three in one, (1)The God the Father (2) God the Son, Jesus (3) God the Holy Spirit.

To receive God's forgiveness, we must:
Pray to Him asking Him to forgive us, and Trust Him.
If you would like to make this step, please, PM Me!

Thank you for reading, I hope it made sense to you.

[Red_Cracker]

So long as the meat tastes good im fine.

[blissturd]

Well, first off. For any of this to even matter, you'd have to believe that this stuff actually even happened.

Where did the first particle of dust come from? Well, where did God come from, that's to say, if he is even here. And don't give me, "He always was and always will be.". That's also belief and unproven. I could easily say that the first dust particle "always was and always will be".

Seriously, there is nothing even in the bible that can really prove that it is for real. It all depends on what you want to believe.

All of this is, unfortunately, not important to the cloning issue(as I've said before) because it's all BELIEF.

No belief, religion, thought, comment, explanation or whatever will stop anything us humans want to do if we so choose to do it. If it could, then a lot of things would not be happening today that already are happening today.

Maybe it'll be done safer or with restriction but, it'll still get done.

Maybe it'll get done illegally, but it'll still get done.

As soon as we are able to do it, we will. I mean, do it efficiently and effectively, that is.


EDIT: How come no one is on Hamachi?

[blissturd]

Well, I guess, if there is nothing left to say, then I guess we go to the next debate.

What is it?

[TH155]

whether spelling matters on boards or not. (a suggestion)

[blissturd]

No! It doesn't matter as long as it is understandable.

Example:

I hate the hamster.

I ate the hamer.

These are pretty much different.

Just try your best to get it right so as not to confuse people. Unless you like them saying stuff about your spelling.

[TH155]

Just wait 4 the samail bomb... Random theorie!!! every1 on the net apart from you and ur friends are the same person, with multiple accounts.

actually make it

I ate the hammer

not I ate the hamer

or I hate the hamster

[Zwaken]

I don't get the point of cloning animals...It seems like so much work just to get another animal, which could have been achieved through normal reproduction. And what purpose would that serve? I don't see one...

[Rex Nex]

Well, looks like this debate is closed. Heres some ideas for new Debates:

Orgin of Religon
McCain and Obama
China and its market takeover
{Related to above: The Next World Superpower}

[Drow Elf]

Let's try to stay away from politics. It can get nasty. And it would only be a good debate for Americans.

[Nonnag]

Yea no politics, US, world, or otherwise. (Unless someone wants to debate Human - Alien politics...)

[minmay]

Let's try to stay away from politics. It can get nasty. And it would only be a good debate for Americans.

Agreed.

[blissturd]

th155,

The original sentence was suppose to be:

"I hate the hamster"

Then the spelling mistakes make it:

"I ate the hamer."

That's what I meant.


And Zwaken,

Cloning the way you are talking about (birth cloning) wouldn't be so cool. But, if you could just create an exact replica clone (same age, personality, looks, etc.), then that would be cool and more purposeful.

You know what I mean?

If you had to wait for the animal or human to grow up after being born then that would be a crappy waste of time most likely.

If there was a machine that just went, "Tsszzzzzzzzzuuuuooooorrrrrrrzzzzzzzt tsssssss", and a clone formed from maybe just a hair follicle or something, then that would be very useful. Unless, of course, if it used, like, a planets worth of energy to operate the machine.

You gotta think "Sci-Fi" cloning.


Rex Nex,

Sorry but, those debating topics are boring.

[Rex Nex]

I find learning about China fascinating.

[blissturd]

Then go to China.

[Drow Elf]

Okay. This is dead. I'll start my philosophy thread in a minute